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bluebabygirl 47 ( +1 | -1 )
can a female player ever become world champion?? and or more specificly - will Judith Polgar ever win world title . i am female 15 year old player and very curious about this one . my dad says no never there will always be at least 20 or more male grandmasters that are far stronger than the best female player!! is this just male macho talk or is there truth to it ?? any comments will be very much appreciated. yours bluebabygirl
jean-marc 0 ( +1 | -1 )
Not touching that one ! ...
zdrak 54 ( +1 | -1 )
Judith Polgar was rated somewhere around #10 in the world at the peak of her strength. Currently she is, if I am not mistaken, around #20. She did defeat Kasparov once (in a speed chess game), but also lost to him several times (including the infamous game where he was accused of cheating by taking a move back).

While she's a jolly good player, she simply doesn't have what it takes to scale the topmost peak of the Chess Olympus.

But who knows, maybe in 10, 20, 30 years some other woman chessplayer will do it! Maybe sooner ...
bluebabygirl 36 ( +1 | -1 )
re;to zdrak really im suprised that anyone would predict that it could happen in as little as 10 years , welll meaning that that female player would have to be in the chess scene now !! anyone in mind zdrak. thanks for your reply!!! it makes me feel better that there is that possibility !! yours bluebabygirl
cairo 63 ( +1 | -1 )
It is just a matter of enough females playing chess. If there was the same amount of female players as there are male players, chances for a female World Champion would be the same as for a male World Champion. Unless the interest for females to play chess increase significant, I don't expect to see a female World Champion the next decade or two.
That puts the significance of Judith Polgar's class and achievements in perspective. She is undubtly the best female player the world until now ever have seen.

Best wishes
Cairo
indiana-jay 70 ( +1 | -1 )
BlueBabbyGirl,
I had always thought the same thing as your dad, without logical explanation. But I think, yes, our brain sometimes draw a conclusion in a reflex way such that it doesn't look like a facts-based opinion, while in fact it is.

In terms of required effort for mastering chess, we know that male endurance, circumstances and psychology is better than female.

While population of female species is greater than male species, it is quite surprising that in every organization (family, schools, universities) I have been involved, highly intelligence "group" is dominated by male!

May be male and female were just created for different reason and purpose ;)
freakachu 27 ( +1 | -1 )
Minor Corrections about Judit Polgar is currently in the top 10 and her play is still improving.

The game she beat Kasparov in was in Russia vs. Rest of the World, not speed chess.

www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1254283
zdrak 36 ( +1 | -1 )
Yes, freakachu, that was a Russia vs. Rest of the World match, which was played with a speed-chess time controls (about 30 minutes per player per game).

As for Judith Polgar becoming a world champion, she'll be 30 years old this year, and I don't believe she can improve significantly anymore. Heck, she's not even the #1 player in Hungary, how do you expect her to become #1 in the world ??


freakachu 18 ( +1 | -1 )
ok... Well then, I stand corrected on point one, I hadn't realized that it was played at different time controls than the others.

I never said I expect her to become #1.
elovater 138 ( +1 | -1 )
men and women... are different, of course. But that doesn't mean one or the other are more or less intelligent! Will anyone doubt that there are different form of intelligence and different ways to express intelligence? Do we really need a female world champion in chess to have proof that women are not less intelligent than men?? Of course chess is a game that seems to fit very well for the way men use to think: It's a destructive game, a killing game, you have to defeat your opponent, that's all. That's what men ought to do by nature and maybe this is explanation enough (of course there are a few more explanations) why women play less and play (in average!) worse. But do not forget: Men (even Grandmasters in chess;-) are committing embarrassing mistakes in everyday life that a woman would only bring to shake her head, so please don't tell me we're more intelligent.
Just let me add one thing to Zdrak's message: Judith Polgar actually is No. 10 of the world, not No. 20, she's rated 2715 which is quite the same Karpov had in his best times. The fact that there are quite a few other great players does not question the fact that she is a genius. Anand had a terrible loss against Kasparov in 1995, but that does not mean he is a poor player or a loser, so please do not judge Judith by her score against Kasparov.
Kind regards. Frank
elovater 20 ( +1 | -1 )
By the way, Zdrak... you've been quite rude to a lady;-)) Judith is 25, as far as I know...you should be more careful talking about a woman's age in future, otherwise you'll feel what it means if they really get angry;-))
ughaibu 16 ( +1 | -1 )
Aggresive women As far as women shedding blood goes there is the
entire Celtic tradition best known through Boudica,
Amazons also spring to mind.
raimon 23 ( +1 | -1 )
Fascinating discussion that you have started bluebabygirl.
I tend to think that if you believe in yourself, want something badly enough and put in the hard work to hone your skills, then you can achieve anything - be you male or female.
zdrak 22 ( +1 | -1 )
Ok elovater, I checked Judit's age ... she's not 25 and not 30, but actually 27 (born 1976). So I guess we both stand corrected!

www.fide.com/ratings/top.phtml
bartlebie 28 ( +1 | -1 )
oh oh zdrak A woman of 29 is far nearer to 25 then to 30, you should realize that. Many women never reach the age of 40, even if they live more than sixty years. There are still some wonders in human nature, we do not need to look for bread and fish for that.
parrvert 63 ( +1 | -1 )
We know that in some ways men are superior to women. In chess we don't know, it could be that men are naturally better, it could be that women are naturally better, I think it is impossible to tell until we have equal interest in chess.

It is clear that far more males play chess than females, but why? I have tried to teach my little sisters to play chess but with very little success, they just weren't interested. I'm not sure whether girls naturally just aren't bothered about pushing bits of wood around or if it is because they are brought up differently.
ughaibu 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Upbringing Isn't the result of the Polgar experiment that it is
about up how they were brought up?
calmrolfe 51 ( +1 | -1 )
Judit Polgar is still on an upward curve as far as her chess rating goes. She is likely to continue improving for some time yet. I feel that she has now reached the level of a Super GM, and, on her day, is quite capable of beating any chess player in the world.

As regards the time scale before we have a woman at the very pinnacle of chess, well, there is a rising flood of excellent girl players coming out of India and China. Maybe the woman champion will soon come from there ?

Kind regards,

Cal
parrvert 88 ( +1 | -1 )
ughaibu I think the case of the Polgar sisters shows that if you have intelligent children and you get them to study chess, chess and more chess they will be very good at it.

As I understand it the Polgar sisters were pretty much forced to play chess from a young age, I think most children who play chess are not so actively encouraged but play of their own free will. So why is it that most of the children that play chess are boys? Is it that boys are encouraged more to play chess? Is that the way boys and girls are brought up makes boys more likely to be interested? Or is it that boys are naturally more likely to like chess than girls?

I'm trying to think back to when I first played chess and I don't think I was particularly strongly encouraged by anyone, I was taught how to play and decided to carry on.
ughaibu 61 ( +1 | -1 )
Parrvert As far as my own case goes I was definitely a
hereditory chess player as my father was very keen
he taught me around the age of five. My sister and
brother were also taught but none of us really took
it up except me and that was when I was sixteen.
My father would study games in the evenings so we
would have received the idea that this was a male
activity as my mother only played with us and only
when requested. I think we all played better than
any of our friends but chess was just one of the
many diversions available, we wouldn't have
dreamed of seriously studying or joining a club.
sumsar 4 ( +1 | -1 )
Well Boys tend to be more compeditive.
sigve 5 ( +1 | -1 )
Kasparov says that... a female player could never be as strong as him...
clemens 3 ( +1 | -1 )
Ha! How would Kasparov know....
brucehum 12 ( +1 | -1 )
Kasparov also said: A woman will never beat a GM.
A computer will never beat a GM.

Ehem... proved wrong twice.

brucehum 42 ( +1 | -1 )
Anecdote from tournament A friend of mine, who is a young woman (19), has a local rating of 2000 (2100 USCF more or less!). In a 20 minutes games tournament, her first game was with an amateur, a complete patzer.

That man, in his 40s, made the mistake of saying before the game started "If I loose against a woman, I'll drop from chess". He was completely trashed in less than 5 minutes and 25 moves. He didn't keep his word.
macheide 40 ( +1 | -1 )
bluebabygirl Dear friend,

I can not think in only one reason to belive the contrary. And my conviction is not only because of Judith Polgar's phenomenal achievements (she have defeated Kasparov more than once. Kasparov once, cheated to defeat Judith. What a shame!), but because of the achievements of a whole new generation of young superb players of the (wrongly called) "weak sex".

Your friend,

macheide.
indiana-jay 27 ( +1 | -1 )
Kasparov said
a female player could never be as strong as him...
A woman will never beat a GM.
A computer will never beat a GM.

I don't think that he is so stupid the he meant it exactly as many others might.

It doesn't have to be like in Math or Physics.

Hey, am I a Kasparov fan???
macheide 27 ( +1 | -1 )
indiana-jay Dear friend,

I'm a Kasparov admirer. But let me tell you what Fischer once said: "I can defeat any woman in the world giving her a Kinght odd". When the great Mikhail "Misha" Tal heared that, he replied: "Fischer is Fischer, but a Knight is a Knight".

Regards,

macheide.
v_glorioso12 11 ( +1 | -1 )
women seem better than we think... isnt it interesting that every U.S. Women's Championship was won by a WOMAN?! NEVER A MAN! are we missing anything here?
macheide 66 ( +1 | -1 )
v_glorioso12 Dear fellow,

Another interesting fact: Do you know who appears in "The Guiness Book of World Records" as the most inteligent human being? Answer: A woman, Marylin von Savant, IQ=240 (an estimation, the normal tests were not made for her), she is married with Robert Jarvik inventor of the artificial heart.

Two final more courious facts: Savant means Sabio in spanish, I do not remmember the exact word in english, but means someone who knows a lot, a genius. Besides Robert James Fischer the great misogin, and for many, the greatest chess player of all time have an IQ of "only" 184, nevertheless superior to the Albert Einstein.

Regards,

macheide.
cpocf 11 ( +1 | -1 )
Give me a big fat break! This is a rather sexes post. Women can play equal to anyone ! What is up with this !
tambori 51 ( +1 | -1 )
agree...cpocf i have a question...why do people ask if a woman is ever gonna be the champion and they do not ask when a Greek for example, an Italian, a Swedish person is gonna become one...? What sort of discrimination is this? Why do we always have to reassure ourselves and others that we are not sexists?...
of course EVERYBODY has the same opportunity to become a champion if he tries hard an has the talent...but questions like these are meaningless...it is like asking...can a female player ever become the worst player in chess?....
yours sincerely...
premium_steve 56 ( +1 | -1 )
that would be like.... a white guy winning an nba dunk contest! (don't slit my throat ;-)) that DID happen, of course, when brent barry won a while ago with a dunk from near the free-throw line. it's a bad analogy i know..... i should have stayed away. there are just fewer women playing chess, so it should be tougher for a woman to win. kind of like a canadian winning the world title because there are so few of us! ok.... i'll stop now. hahaha

a female can win the world championship. i wouldn't bet on it happening soon, but it is a possibility, i guess. maybe you can do it, babybluegirl, in ten years or so.
bluebabygirl 94 ( +1 | -1 )
to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there are so many replies to my question that i must thank you all en-mass. and i sincerely do . there are so many very good facts presented and so many very good points expressed about this !!!!!to me this site must have more very intelligent people than any other site !!!!to premium_steve. i sincerely doubt given my low rating just under 1600 provisional and my uncontrollable tendency to be hyper aggressive that i could ever be worldchamp evenn given 100 years . but thanks for the encouragement !!! to macheide your statement TAL said " FISCHER IS FISCHER but a Knight is a Knight", i must agree with TAL, however about TAL i have to say "TAL is TAL " AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER LIKE HIM!!!! when i started this thread i never thought there would be this many responses , with so many interesting observations !!!! again many thanks to you all !! yours bluebabygirl
bluebabygirl 94 ( +1 | -1 )
to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there are so many replies to my question that i must thank you all en-mass. and i sincerely do . there are so many very good facts presented and so many very good points expressed about this !!!!!to me this site must have more very intelligent people than any other site !!!!to premium_steve. i sincerely doubt given my low rating just under 1600 provisional and my uncontrollable tendency to be hyper aggressive that i could ever be worldchamp evenn given 100 years . but thanks for the encouragement !!! to macheide your statement TAL said " FISCHER IS FISCHER but a Knight is a Knight", i must agree with TAL, however about TAL i have to say "TAL is TAL " AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER LIKE HIM!!!! when i started this thread i never thought there would be this many responses , with so many interesting observations !!!! again many thanks to you all !! yours bluebabygirl
bluebabygirl 29 ( +1 | -1 )
to cpof this is not a sexist post .im female 15 years old and i wanted to know!!! it seems to me to be a rather logical question . and from response i got it must be an interesting one too !!!!!! and if you want a big fat break like you said try making an encouraging comment to some one !! but i do thank you for your comments cpof too !yours bluebabygirl
indiana-jay 34 ( +1 | -1 )

"i sincerely doubt given my low rating just under 1600 provisional and my uncontrollable tendency to be hyper aggressive that i could ever be worldchamp even given 100 years"

One of several good qualities is to recognize own weaknesses and limitations. By knowing our own strength and weakness, we know when to push and when not to.

As long as it's not pesimistic.....
bluebabygirl 40 ( +1 | -1 )
to indi yes very very good advice and i certainly am not a pessimist but simply meant that although i recognize those faults in my play and I will try to overcome them, i would still have to be a genius to win title , which i am not even though my dad,s IQ showed him to be 161 way back in 1969 and he only plays at just above 1976 rating . again thanks for advice and encouragement!!!! yours bluebabygirl
edmaster 41 ( +1 | -1 )
THE BRAINS! OF MEN AND WOMEN OUR WIRED DIFFERENTLY!THE CHEMISTRY Of MALES BRAINS AND FEMALES BRAINS ARE DIFFERENT IN GENERAL!AND EXCEPTIONS IN CERTAIN FIELDS!WE CAN THROW OTHER VARIABLES SUCH AS ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS,POLITICAL FACTORS,ECONOMIC FACTORS.PARENTAL UPBRINGINGING FACTORS,ECT.BUT AS A WHOLE MEN EXCELL IN MENTAL INTELLECTUAL DISCIPLINES SUCH MATHEMATICS AWHILE FEMALES EXCELL IN THE ARTS AND LANGUAGE REMEMBER THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!
ughaibu 25 ( +1 | -1 )
In Japan a whole theory is developed about how a
player's blood type is expressed in shogi style. 'A'
type want to calculate to the end and get into time
trouble, 'B' type prefer risks and trust their intuition,
'O' type are materialistic.
raimon 67 ( +1 | -1 )
The brain theory has been around for a long time - if I remember correctly males tend to make more use of the left hemisphere which makes them better problem solvers and sometimes a bit singleminded, while females tend to favour the right hemisphere which makes them more intuitive, better at spoken language and more able to multitask.
I think that some studies came to the conclusion that the more that you can get the two hemispheres to interact or work together the better balanced and therefore more able to use your intelligence you become.
One of the human activities that were found to cause this interaction was singing.
ughaibu 15 ( +1 | -1 )
Interestingly Gameknot has a member whose user
name is that of a drug that has been demonstrated
to enhance the flow between hemispheres.
premium_steve 2 ( +1 | -1 )
really? what's the name?
ughaibu 10 ( +1 | -1 )
It would be indiscrete of me to say here, if you like I
will tell that member of your interest.
mercy 103 ( +1 | -1 )
mine too! I'm interested to know the user name too!
jean-marc ... wise decision on your stance in this matter. Of course women can play just as well as men can. The problem is just as Cairo indicated... not enough women interested in Chess. Not enough women take the game seriously. However, I must say that I dont think there is a female (this time) that can compete against the top players. Judith Polgar for instance, she can play and beat the worlds top competitors in a tournament but I dont think she would be too much trouble in a long match vs. Kasparov. But... she is only the first female player that proved women can compete amongst men, before Judit... women rarely competed amongst the men. Give it time... there will be another female player that will be even stronger then Judit.

Doris
jean-marc 14 ( +1 | -1 )
I've learned... Thanks Doris... At my age, you learn not to get baited into that sort of debate. You can never win.

God try though, bluebabygirl. The thread is still going !
bluebabygirl 85 ( +1 | -1 )
ponder this ?? a man can never out talk a woman !! strong statement you say !!ok I tell you why !! I just read last week somewhere i forget where that -- the average man uses 1500 words a day thats on average but the average woman uses between 5 and 6 thousand words a day !!!!! interesting huh !!so when you think your wife or girlfriend or even co-worker is nagging you , WHY YOU JUST THINK AGAIN , BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY TRYING TO FINISH OUT THEIR QUOTA!!! i THOUGHT THAT YOU MIGHT GET A LAUGH FROM THAT !!, i quite often laugh at myself, which in itself proves that i'm quite silly!!however i'M INTHE MINORITY BECAUSE I NEVER MEET THAT QUOTA , THAT IS UNLESS IT INCLUDE WRITTEN WORDS !!especially for you jean-marc that i humble myself and admit what a big mouth I got !!! yours bluebabygirl
premium_steve 11 ( +1 | -1 )
i saw that too the words per day i mean. dr. phil said it when he was interviewed by larry king.... answering a caller's question.
crayons 98 ( +1 | -1 )
BBG... Does this word usage average apply to male lawyers?...being a direct relative of one I am inclined to think this isn't so. It is very difficult to get a lawyer to give a direct answer to even a simple question...I think that this increase from normal speech alone could accumulate over the course of a day to exceed that of a womans word usage count. However,this certainly isnt to say that a woman can't out talk a man. (Even a lawyer as I've seen proven time and time again.)

Back to the topic: I think it comes down to not enough women playing chess (as many have said) but I am curious as to whether this is because of a physical difference in brain function/chemistry, or rather subtle cultural input that would predetermine female interest in chess (In this case negatively.) This isnt of course without wonderful exceptions.

Just a thought...
-Austin
noswonky 105 ( +1 | -1 )
There is no doubt that male and female brains are different. This doesn't mean that one is more intelligent than the other. But each has different strengths and different interests. This might be why women tend to be less interested in chess than men are. But I think a woman could become world champion. Judit Polgar has just gone over 2700 for the first time and is back in the top 10, so she might not have peaked yet. Remember that Khalifman won the FIDE world championship when he was ranked about 30 in the world! If not Polgar then some other female prodigy could appear at any time. It would just love to see Kasparov blown off the board by a woman. That would put his ego in its place :)

I should also add that I was beaten in a tournament game by a 10 year old girl (I was 37 at the time) and it didn't bother my male ego in the slightest. She was just better than me and I don't mind losing to anyone better than me no matter what their age or gender. But it's good to see more girls playing chess.

noobler 135 ( +1 | -1 )
ramblings.... There are noticeable differences in aptitudes due to hormonal influence on brain development (ex: women tend to do better in mathematical calculation while men appear to do so in mathematical reasoning,) so there is a significant biological factor.

Unfortunately (or fortunately - take your pick,) that doesn't even begin to explain the imbalance at the higher levels. The high end game of chess seems to be dominated, in general, by talented people whose development was directed specifically towards chessplaying at an early age (pre 12 or so.) Due to various social and cultural factors there are FAR more men who are playing and training at a young age. Ignoring any gender-related aptitude, these conditions make it highly unlikely (from a statistical standpoint) you'd actually FIND the top 10 calibre female players out there - individuals like that are incredibly rare (and yet we still have one.*)

In short, we need more women playing :-) I think most people would agree, with the exception of Short himself (go fig) and other closed-minded and/or misogynistic individuals.

* - Before anyone claims that Polgar's development was warped by her father at an early age towards that goal so she doesn't count (someone always does,) it's not exactly an uncommon practice in the chess world. To make a dramatic understatement - this also happens far more often with men than women.